That's pretty elaborate. And when provoked no animal could stand before him elegantly put. Current conditions in New Hampshire would support a mountain lion, according to Tate, as forests have returned, allowing for prey species to become more prevalent. So you want identifiable backgrounds. And today we're talking about the mysterious elusive mountain line with folks who know something about it. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. Sue Morse: The big cat really commands the utmost respect not so much fear but fascination. We are the second most-forested state in the country, and those forests can be impenetrable snarls (part of why the Northeast is notoriously a difficult place to hunt deer), and while there are people in a lot of those woods, because the cats have been absent for a few generations now, most of those people dont know what a cougar scrape or latrine look and smell like. If it's just in the middle of a greenfield you can't prove anything. Wed love to be part of the first verified sighting. What gets confusing is when you have a large adult animal and a smaller juvenile animal of a different species you can now step start beginning talking about overlapping body weights and sizes. However the scarring on the trees did not and the angles were off. Give today. But you can continue the conversation on Facebook or at our Web site and HP Borg. And I think a lot of folks would like them to be around. Sam Evans-Brown: Well and I think and the last takeaway here is everyone I think probably agrees that any possible sightings that have been seen. And a lot of people around the county airport have seen a lot of pilots coming in said they saw huge. But are there mountain lions living in New Hampshire? Sam Evans-Brown: Well first I want to sort of explain why what the theory is but then also throw a bit of cold water on it because I don't think there's much much logic behind it but essentially is that if fish and game were to acknowledge that there was a population of Mount lions in the state there's a chance that something like a listing under the federal Endangered Species Act might happen and then there'd be you know some they'd have to put a plan in place to protect the species there'd be you know restrictions put on development. So we tossed these terms around but really the term subspecies has been sort of redefined in our lifetimes. So they're scary. I mean that so many of them are false sightings we. You know I'm like seriously I can't get a picture of the thing but what it what it is. BUT THAT SAID, Id love to be proven wrong. I've seen him in the woods and that was not a bobcat but I was looking at. So. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction. Give today. We're gonna cue you up and bring into the program listeners in just a moment but I want to ask about the role that Mountain Lions play in the ecosystem we've been talking a lot about mountain lions traveling and being sort of hard to track as they move. Is that typically what was happening there. Ecosystem Management Consultants of New England, Ask Sam, and recently fielded question about mountain lions, 10 things to do in NH this weekend: Dartmouth Dance, Hamilton De Holanda & more, Turkish restaurant in the Upper Valley aims to help those affected by recent earthquakes, RFK Jr. tells NH crowd hes considering a presidential run, Epping woman pleads guilty to threatening Michigan election official in 2020, We also hear excerpts from an interview with, Read about the most recent cougar "sightings". Early in the morning. Rick van de Poll: Yes. Think you've seen a mountain lion? Peter Biello: Yeah. We speculate they dont want us to screw up tourism we dont know whats going on. Peter Biello: So if they were female mountain lions here they would be more males just because that's what they're looking for. We send out DNA samples to the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station. Mountain lions ( Puma concolor) are one of the six native species of wild cats in North America. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. We have evidence and as biologists we would find it quite exciting to find that evidence of one in the state. Have it reported down in the Keene area. One was in Shelton. You need you need either a really good photograph or you need you know fresh scat that can be sent to a lab out West that can they can be identified there. Copyright New Hampshire Fish and Game Department.An official New Hampshire government website. So here in New Hampshire when a person turns in something that the Department believes is possible mountain lion and believes it should be investigated further. www.wildlife.state.nh.us, Buy or Renew Your Saltwater Fishing License, Great Bay National Estuarine Research Reserve. Peter Biello: Wow. Want to report a Mountain Lion sighting in New Hampshire? PublishedNovember 16, 2018 at 6:16 AM EST. Mike thanks for your call. 44-N Links. So when we hear mountain lion there's also cougar there's wild cat there's Bobcat which is not a mountain lion maybe Patrick could you sort of spell out the different terms which are synonymous and which are completely different animals. Peter Biello: Hmm. HOLDERNESS, N.H. (AP) Two of the known mountain lions in New Hampshire have spent their 15 years in close proximity to humans. So take care of this problem. Yeah I did. I saw the tail end of a literally from behind the shoulder The Long Tail mountain lion crossing the highway going from Password to often Village downtown. All of that remains unanswered but it is an extremely interesting question. WMUR NH Chronicle Mountain Lions in NH Part I and Part II. Patrick Tate: I don't believe it is. OK. Rick van de Poll: Rick and I would add that if a mountain lion male takes up residence and successfully finds a female as pets there's gonna be a lot more evidence there will be like deer carcasses up in trees and territorial marking and claw marks and tracks and it you know dispersal is gonna be very tough to see or observed but residential parrots a totally different story. I was at the Sentinel as a reporter there for about four years and during that time I probably wrote close to a half dozen stories or so on this topic including a lengthy feature at one point that in which I spoke to several people from around the banana region claimed to have seen mountain lions that at one time or another. You can see two of them at Squam Lakes Natural Science Center in Holderness NH. Let us know your story and share your photos! Sam Evans Brown. The nonbelievers are going to say Show us your evidence and show us prove this to us. Mountain lions remain an enigmatic animal for residents of New Hampshire, with New Hampshire Fish and Game reporting three to five sightings per week. We mentioned that one cat that was hit by a car where it has it that it was a male looking for me. The American Lion The Saber tooth Tiger and this was the one that survived. (Cue the X-Files music: The Government is denying the cougars exist!) This decision was primarily for nerdy phylogeny reasons, though, because the eastern cougar probably never existed. The trouble with accepting every reported sighting as a confirmed mountain lion is that there are so many mistaken identifications. So for those reasons I don't believe the standards are too high the amount of game cameras out on the landscape to record images department alone through contracts had over 150 throughout the state biologists go through various deer yards throughout the year. The engineers Dan Colgan our senior producer is Allan Grimm. Patrick Tate: So it's interesting it's brought up. When they were landing or taking off and it seems like it's been there for like. Peter Biello: Or send us an email exchange at an HP board. If so that's for us as an agency. So I certainly can't dispute anything that they said there's no evidence for me to go by to verify or say what my thoughts are on the situation. That's next time on one day. Mountain Lion report and as a biologist for the state that's a situation where if he said to me what did I see. Rick van de Poll: Absolutely. For me as a person who's handled many bobcats and looked at many pictures Bobcat the White chin Bobcat right off is what comes out to me and then the black the the roughs on our Bobcats we'll have sometimes have black fringes on them. He shifted gears in 2016 and began producing Outside/In, a podcast and radio show about the natural world and how we use it. His work has won him several awards, including two regional Edward R. Murrow awards, one national Murrow, and the Overseas Press Club of America's award for best environmental reporting in any medium. And those are not the same things. But the state always denies it, and none of us know why they deny it. Absolutely. Well let's talk a little bit about that. Deer Bear Moose Wolves Fisher Mountain Lions. Peter Biello: Nice to be here. The 17-year-old Kiger mustang mare was born in Bend, Oregon, said Hodskins, who got her . Let's talk to Bob in Laconia Bob. Can we go to the site. Sandy Hodskins, owner of West Meadow Farm in Bradford, New Hampshire, took time from shoveling Wednesday to enjoy the snow with her horse, West Wind. Why are there so many false positives? When you talk about a bobcat Bobcat maybe 80 90 pounds and then a mountain lion could be between 130 and 180 pounds. So I will just say this is a big reason why there have not been confirmed sightings I think is that the evidence required first. Is this kind of a typical story. I mean it wasn't your idea. They sent he sent his scent those two samples with his to Wyoming an unfortunate Fish and Game Commission there did not get a positive read on it but send it back to Central Michigan University where they did a nuclear micro satellite DNA analysis and found no significant difference between that scat and other scats that were tested from the Rocky Mountain region. Peter Biello: The number is 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Chartered 1973; Member of District 44-H; . It doesn't happen as much anymore. Which which I think Pat and I have both experienced. So I don't understand really how how this this idea came to be but it is the main reason why folks believe that fishing game is is covering up the fact that there are mountain lions in the state again with no evidence. Patrick Tate: Well. Mark Elbroch doesnt think so. And so far we have not had any positive mark lion scats or any DNA. So one thing that I find fascinating about this Connecticut cat was six months between the New York situation where they found evidence of it too when it was hit by a motor vehicle. There's always been physical evidence to prove those situations like hair or fur scat hair prints pictures of the animal print scat hair. My wife and I saw a mountain lion. Some argue that it's a leap of faith. Sam Evans-Brown: What he would have stopped as well I think is way way that the reason that mountain lion kept moving is because he wasn't finding anybody. Okay. As far as I could tell there was a positive DNA sequence coming from the scat sample Patrick. Information that weed family automotive dot com sunny for today high temperatures low to mid 80s clear tonight overnight lows in the 50s tomorrow sunny highs in the upper 80s. Thank you. Just. Anytime at any HP broad dot org or subscribe to our podcast search Apple podcasts Google Play or stitcher for an HP bar exchange. Almost all species disperse greater distances than females. NH Fish and Game relies on physical evidence to answer questions about the presence or absence of mountain lion in the state. Mountain lions (especially males) have incredibly large ranges that they defend from rivals. It's you know I recognized their report and. As wildlife biologists, wed be fascinated to say 'look look what was found in our state.'. And then just up behind it you know at about 11 o'clock on one side and whatever that would be on the other side it's black. He said matter of fact I do. About two years ago I was at the Laconia airport on the way home from the airport and there's a big lake on one side called Lily Pond. Yes and you want to share what you learned. I noticed it had a really big sweeping tail that kind of curled up behind it and all but still at that point because everyone says there's no mountain lions here. Reports without physical evidence are not dismissed, however Fish and Game cannot verify a sighting report without physical evidence. Mountain lion or cat running across. That's why we always go back to the physical evidence to support what they're reporting. No evidence and other states where Mountain lights have turned up. Peter Biello: We mentioned that the eastern cougar and the Western cougar are they were separate eastern cougar believed to be extinct. Peter Biello: Mm hmm. Russ, from Sandwich (and Bedford) asks: In Sandwich New Hampshire, everybody has a story about seeing a mountain lion. So do they. About Us Media Kit Calendar of Events Volunteer Visit Learn Events Membership Support Your Visit BUY TICKETS Know Before You Go Directions and Information Our Animals Live Animal Exhibit Trail Hours and Admission Calendar of Events Sam Evans-Brown: And when we talk about subspecies this actually leads to to an interesting tangent which is that the field of biology recently has been sort of revolutionized by the use of DNA to determine what subspecies are. They're the generalists that made it through both the arrival of the Clovis people with their with their spears and then the Europeans with their guns. I'm gonna send you a letter that we researched this report and we spoke with those labs and the lab wrote in their letter to us that they could only say that Scott contained white Tea Party fur and that they could not say what deposited the scout because it's far too degraded listeners we'd love to hear from you about your mountain lion sightings if you have seen one or if you if you think you have give us a call we'd love to hear your story 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. The DNA the DNA that they were able to pull from the cat suggested that it was a dispersed mountain lion that came. Patrick Tate: Yes. Mike Guyton pressure was almost Greyhound like very muscular large back legs on it and the coloration on it was almost an orange brownish orange color and so I stop and I look at this thing in the field and as the animal looks at me the face was very chiseled definitely not a bobcat. Yet this young male traveled about 1,800 miles. We'll push great photos to the front page. There's no logic for why they'd be listed as an endangered species. People were calling the New Hampshire Fish and Game director's office saying why are you dragging your feet on this. Patrick Tate: If I could just say one thing. So try to take photographs if you see something like this. Peter Biello: We at this e-mailed comment from Michael. The way that we define species has undergone a revolution with the advent of DNA testing. Which brings us to the next question, what are the odds that some of these reported sightings (which, when I posted about this on twitter, I immediately started to get as well) are actually people seeing a mountain lion? Join as a $8 per month sustainer and get our brand-new owl umbrella! So I just brought up the bobcat thing because the location is fascinating to me that that that location we have Bobcats existing but that location we have a mountain lion report because it's a developed area and which brings me back to earlier what I had said it's a bouncing ball. New Hampshire Public Radio | So for our scientists to do the lumping and whatnot. Rick van de Poll: Well the mountain lion of course has been sort of an enigma in the wildlife suite for years and years. Sam Evans-Brown: Pretty well I was going to say it is nice to hear about how to identify the facial markings but probably I'd being a to identify the tracks is probably the more useful useful tool that one can have in their tool box. John Holt's ideas were at first dismissed but he refused to be silent. So nowadays we think of this in the Northeast as crazy stuff that people have a mountain lion as a pet. I can't tell you what you saw but it sounds like a mountain lion. There are mountain lion in Massachusetts. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. Do you want to see real, living mountain lions that do exist in New Hampshire. Today, their range stretches from the Yukon Territory in Canada along the western coast of the United States, all the way to the Southern Andes in Chile. Thanks for a great thanks. Its impossible to say, but I think the odds are pretty good that some of these sightings are legit. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HP yard today we're talking about the mysterious elusive majestic Mystic Mountain Lion. Some of the reports that I looked into that were actually on file at the local fish and game office were even from people who did not live locally. Theyve always said when we have verifiable evidence to say a mountain lion has been, is, or was in the state that wed acknowledge that and give that information out, says Pat Tate, the furbearer biologist with New Hampshire Fish and Game, who insists theres no conspiracy. The unheralded hero of Apollo John Hubble the man who knew the way to the moon. nh.gov | privacy policy | accessibility policy So. So so it is possible in Maine to still to to to have one but you have to be sort of professional handler as it were. And still the the folks there did weren't able to come up with it with 100 percent certainty what deposited that scat. It's bigger but bigger and better world. You know perhaps poke around where you saw it and see if you can find a track. But Absence of Evidence Is Not Evidence of Absence, Right? He played a pivotal role and he battled for recognition. Fish and Game then deny the evidence. Patrick Tate: Nice talk to you too. You saw what you saw. However, dispersing western mountain lions have left evidence as close as Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York. Have you seen one. Okay. Do we have native species that could have exhibited this type of behavior leaving leaving a deer carcass up in a tree. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all. In fact, Pat Tate concedes that hes been told of sightings from folks that he considers to be very credible, very woods savvypeople who know what a bobcat looks likebut those folks have never snapped a good photo or found a good track. Well let me ask maybe Pat and Rick about this. We're not in the woods. I just saw the head and the tail that was leaving. They lived perhaps elsewhere in New England and they were just passing through and happened to have an encounter of some sort. The views expressed in this program are those of the individuals and not those of an HP are its board of trustees or its underwriters. Somewhere the way they travel the things they do they're going to leave evidence. And there are thousands of mountain lions killed every year legally through hunting, and there have been untold tens of thousands of mountain lions killed by hunters over the last hundred years, says Mark Elbroch, the Puma Program Director for Panthera, a global wild cat conservation organization, So even the folks who live with mountain lions still have a fancy and see something thats not there to me thats incredible.. Chartered: 1973 . As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all along the waykilled a beaver near the Quabbin Reservoir in Central Massachusetts, left behind prints and DNA at that site, and then was hit by a car in Connecticut. NHFG Wildlife Biologist Patrick Tate identifies this cat as a bobcat. Some are included in lists of mountains, such as the Appalachian Mountain Club (AMC) list of the Hundred Highest peaks of New England, or the . Can you look into this picture. Peter Biello: And that will make identification for a layperson rather difficult. So it is possible to see male Mountain lions roam into the northeast - there was one hit by a car in CT a number of years back - but we don't have a breeding population of Mountain lions in New England. How far were you from this cat. They sent it already. So when we talk about the threshold of evidence required to say for sure you have seen a mountain lion it is rather high. Rick shaking his head so Rick now correct me please. The tail leave is a giveaway but not everybody gets to see the tail. Peter Biello: Well yeah. It's got a a smudge of black and bobcats and links just don't have that we don't have any other cards. Patrick Tate: I've from all the situations I've read and learned about wildlife. Patrick Tate: Yeah yeah. Caller: Oh yeah. Rick van de Poll: Well education is the real important thrust of of what all of us do as biologists and Game Managers and to make sure that a things like what Sam was saying that in spite of what you believe the mountain lions will not eat your children they will not steal your pets from your backyard and they will not necessarily be seen by you unless you're extremely lucky. Thank you. Peter Biello: But clearly you know you're saying like hoaxes people who claim to have seen a mountain lion but knowingly have not or are appropriating photos taken elsewhere of legit mountain lion say out West where they people acknowledge that they exist certainly knowingly or unknowingly in this case the person who sent it to me said hey a friend of mine sent me this photo and said he took it on his back porch also. But no proof was offered. Kyle I think about Rick Tate wants to jump in here. The states never denied mountain lions are here, and theyve never admitted mountain lions are here. Verifiable pictures recorded by the observing person or a trail camera. And to anyone listening I would just say you know fishing game who wants proof right. Through DNA they approximate area in the United States or North America where I was born. John if you're still on the line here I was going to I don't. And I think this is a really interesting story for a couple of reasons one is that it proves what Pat was saying which that basically from New York state where its traces was really picked up on a game camera around Lake George all the way down to Connecticut there was numerous. They're very loyal to what the handler which makes them very dangerous to everyone else. Its distinctive featurethe one that sets it apart from other North American wild catsis its tail, which is thick and often as long as its body. So they're not afraid of humans and they'll show up like a regular housecat. For over 38 years the Saddleback Mountain Lions have offered people a chance to give back to their community. Do they travel. You know one of the the biggest questions I have about that is it points to how much we don't know and if in fact we don't know enough. If youd like to submit a question (or send a mountain line photo) you can record it as a voice memo on your smart phone and send it tooustidein@nhpr.org, OR call our hotline, 1-844-GO-OTTER (1-844-466-8837) and leave a message. New Hampshire Fish and Game Department says there's no proof. The second one was not only fresh but when I actually put my hand on it it was you know smelled like cat and I it's there's no denying a fresh mountain lions get if you can tell it every story that KOAT. So for me as a person who's had the Bobcats right off my grits similar carries sticks to a bobcat The Long Tail obviously very different but those facial markings were overlapping for me. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Patrick Tate: Okay. For starters, part of the confusion might come from the fact that the eastern cougar was taken off the endangered species list earlier this year. And I have to use that word allegedly because there is so much dispute about what people see and what they actually see. 1957. So that's the specimen that you find going long distances. So I think the point that I just want to get across is that there is a very strong sense this here in the and not region that there is that there is some sort of mountain lion population how large it is how extensive it is. Michael Brindley is our program manager our producers our Jessica Hunt and Christina Phillips and our theme music was composed by Bob Lord. What kind of animal is that. I've had a number of people call up and say I found a scout in the woods and I want it DNA identified. I would just suggest that in my experience as a reporter covering this covering this issue for a few years at least at what point do we reach a certain critical mass for lack of a better term of accounts where I'm not to suggest that you guys aren't taking this possibility seriously. Rick van de Poll: Well I didn't. Nicholas Handy can be reached at 924-7172 ext. So I reached down to grab the camera and looked back and like a ghost it's gone. Sam Evans-Brown: And second the evidence required is is you know pretty pretty tough to gather. We'll be right back. Theres tracks everywhere. No I saw a camel. There's a lot of photographs that you can see that it's very clearly a tabby cat that someone has thought was a mountain lion. Which goes back to the Connecticut Connecticut cat and what not. So what counts as verifiable evidence? You know you have to have a license and it's hard to get that license a license to own a mountain lion. Patrick Tate: No downward pressure at all I think actually Sean turned up and we found the evidence there a number of people would finally say finally we can put this debate to bed. Because I mean as we've heard in the past 10 minutes like there's there's some disagreement or at least some some vagueness about what an actual mountain lion should appear like in the wild assuming we can even get close enough. Mountain Lion | Squam Lakes Natural Science Center All exhibit and hiking trails are CLOSED for the season. You don't know what's going on. He studied Politics and Spanish at Bates College, and before reporting was variously employed as a Spanish teacher, farmer, bicycle mechanic, ski coach, research assistant, a wilderness trip leader and a technical supporter. I mean I that said I've lived out west for nine years. Peter Biello: Give us a call 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 you can also send us an email exchange at an HP morgue. Thank you very much for that story really appreciate it. Peter Biello: Sam I wanted to ask you a little bit about that first and then turn to Patrick Tate efficient game. We'll hear from her periodically through the show. Caller: Absolutely. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. It was not a bobcat. So I hate the idea that there's some sort of upward you know downward pressure from the bosses saying Don't you know don't tell about the mountain lions because it'll scare away the tourists. And here we're talking about in this situation we're talking about it migrated from the West. And they asked me about the tail which I just did not remember that tail out of that whole experience. Just one quick point I think I think when we we talk about these conspiracy theories the real story is that fish and game is an agency that that is short on budget and staff. So one thing I'll add we're talking about natural dispensers but talking with the conservation officer in the 1980s they recall going to a residence telling a person you can live here but your mountain lion can't. So I did a bunch of research and all the documentation I found was there art are not any pieces of DNA of Eastern online. Residents Report Mountain Lion Sighting By Elysia Rodriguez Published August 11, 2015 A southern New Hampshire neighborhood believes a mountain lion is roaming the woods near their homes. From "History of New Hampshire Game and Furbearers" by Helenette Silver, Research Clerk, NH Fish and Game Dept. Your support makes this news available to everyone. JavaScript must be enabled for some features to display properly. Peter Biello: Thank you for sharing that. It doesn't make much sense because you know mountain lions are as we as we said before. I just don't understand the mechanism for how that would happen. Peter Biello: So Patrick today Fish and Game no downward pressure on you to deny the existence at all costs of mountain lions here in New Hampshire. It's completely possible that it may have spent time in New Hampshire and went undetected but had it stayed in the area ultimately it would have been detected over time. The book MAMMAL TRACKS & SIGN by Mark Elbroch has pictures of mountain lion scat found at a multiple beaver kill. Get your tickets today and one for fifty dollars or six for 150 at NH PR and board.